One last thing for today - a few of Corey's texts to Father David today regarding their religious discussion, the topics today were mostly regarding whether or not the LDS faith has it's roots in the occult. Here's the
. I don't have Father D's assertions, but here are Corey's replies:
When you first mentioned the “burning the bosom” I knew what you were talking about – but it’s kind of obscure and I didn’t mean rhetorically “where did you hear about that?” but I was literally curious, wondering if I had quoted it to you. It is not a common thing for missionaries to describe the confirmation of the Spirit as a burning of the bosom. Much more common is the kind of thing that my son Ethan wrote in his weekly e-mail home. He is serving in the Dominican Republic and teaching people to follow Jesus, to be baptized, and to follow Christ’s example. If one of the fruits of the Spirit is love for the people he’s serving (Galatians 5:22–23) then he has felt the Spirit of God strongly this past week. This kind of stuff is sacred to me, and I realize I’m sharing it at the risk of having it picked apart and criticized – but hope you’ll read it with understanding and compassion – with an open mind that others could be doing God’s work with a different interpretation of the Trinity.
“We met a haitian family a couple of weeks ago. They have like 4 kids, and for some reason they love me. Every time they see me in the street they all come up and hug me and then all their friends come to. I feel like a dad coming home from work haha. Their sweet mom is a saint. I love her so much. Her husband had been in Haiti for a couple of weeks, so she has been taking her four kids to church on her own every week. And it’s a bit of a walk. But she gets everyone up early and get them clean and dressed, and then walks them to church in her high heels. It’s hard for me to even write this without tearing up. She barely even speaks spanish, but she does it, because two gringo servants of the Lord Jesus Christ invited her to. And we only asked once. It wasn’t easy for my parents to get little kids ready for church on time and we lived pretty close to the church with good living conditions. This sweet family lives in a house the size of a little walk in closet. And she still get everyone ready for church without a complaint.
I hear excuses all of the time from people about why they can’t come to church. They are all lame haha. This lady actually would have a decent excuse if she wanted to use it, but doesn’t. She just comes to church anyways.
But yea I love that family so much. We gave them a picture of Jesus and the next time we came we saw that they had taped the picture of Jesus on the wall. That really got me too.”
“The spirit was really strong this week. Our friends Soledad and Deivi got baptized. I’ve been teaching them since I got here and it was a miracle to see them get baptized. They are both so elect. I baptized Deivi and Elder Opheikens baptized Soledad. It was a really spiritual baptism. A ton of members came to support and Deivi and Soledad’s family and friends came too. They were both super nervous but after they got baptized they were both so happy. Deivi wanted to do it again. The spirit was just so strong in there! Everyone was so happy. Elder Opheikens and I couldn’t stop smiling. We talked after about how happy we felt. You had to be there to understand it, but it was amazing. Totally worth all of the work we’ve been putting in for them.
And it was so spiritual that after the baptism, Soledad’s mom (who won’t come to church) came up to us and said that she wants her and Soledad’s friends to get baptized. Super cool! Then later in the day the spiritual high kept going and another friend of Soledad came up to us and told us that he wants to be baptized. Super crazy!”
“But the biggest miracle this week was church. We invite people to church all week, and then in the morning before church we go to peoples houses to confirm that they are coming. Yesterday morning was looking like it was gonna be a normal week since it looked like a lot of people were bailing. During the church service we were sitting by Soledad and Deivi and the spirit was super strong. They got confirmed members of the church, and both of them were blessed that they would serve full-time missions. Me and Elder Opheikens were trippin’! Then I looked around to count how many investigators had come. As I was counting, more people walked in, families at a time. Every time a new family we’re teaching would walk in, me and Elder Opheikens would freak out. It kept happening, and we ended up having 16 friends come to church! I’ve only had that many at church one other time, so it was a huge miracle. I started tearing up right there in the meeting.
Then after the meeting I was on a spiritual high, and the kids of the haitian family that I was telling you guys about came up and they all hugged me. That was such a celestial moment for me.
But yea, basically it was sweet.”
“Also as an apartment we watched the video about my family called “The House” the other night. I also got teared up during that and had another spiritual witness that the gospel is true. Just seeing how much it has blessed my family really hit me hard. I remembered that God does that which is good. Anything bad doesn’t come from Him.”
“I also had a thought about Joseph Smith. Sitting in church looking around seeing all these happy people, I had another witness that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. He literally restored the gospel that brings peace, and gave up everything for it because he knew it was true.”
More from Corey -
Just re-reading your text, and I take issue with this statement: "I showed you that there is extensive evidence of this assertion. You don't have 'time' to look into this, you said. Corey, you are presenting yourself as someone who says you want the truth, but doesn't act in a manner consistent with his words". I was not saying "I don't have time" to look into this stuff as a way to dismiss it - but that I have not had time this week to look into every thing you have sent and respond quickly....but I'm happy to continue. I've spent a lot of time and lost a lot of money already on consulting revenue (I charge by the hour) going over stuff you have sent me. I work 40-50 hours per week and have lots of kids - I'm very busy so I can't dedicate all of my time to responding to anti-Mormon attacks. I'm not dismissing it, and if you'd like access to my online spreadsheet of accusations you will see that I'm taking a lot of time to understand and respond. That said, the burden of proof should be on the accuser. Give me the best evidence you have that the Smith Family was involved in the occult - it is not enough to say that other people say so - let's get to the original sources. Please define "occult" and give a specific example of it.
You say "the evidence is overwhelming that Joseph Smith was an occultist" - please define the word and list out the specific accusation. Did he sacrifice a chicken looking for buried treasure? Did he kill somebody as part of a secret combination for power? Being brought up on criminal charges is not the same as being an occultist - and I think it was a lot more than 10 times he was charged. You had said he was convicted in the March 1826 trial - but that wasn't true. Do you admit he wasn't convicted of anything in the 1826 trial? Exactly which one of the charges against him proved he was into the occult? I feel like the burden of evidence should be on the person making the accusation. Help me out here and be a bit more specific. Is polygamy part of the occult? Is the teaching of "blood atonement" further evidence of the occult?
As for blood atonement - I accept the fact that (as the church has stated): "In the mid-19th century, when rhetorical, emotional oratory was common, some church members and leaders used strong language that included notions of people making restitution for their sins by giving up their own lives." I also accept the church's statement that "However, so-called 'blood atonement,' by which individuals would be required to shed their own blood to pay for their sins, is not a doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We believe in and teach the infinite and all-encompassing atonement of Jesus Christ, which makes forgiveness of sin and salvation possible for all people."
Is the implication that early Latter-day saints killed their enemies to satisfy some occult/religious sacrament? Is this related to the accusation that our missionaries are CIA spies? The teaching (such as it was) was meant to be a voluntary offering as part of repenting for serious crimes. This isn't taught and nobody hears about it until it is occasionally recycled by critics. Sometimes I imagine how other societies would judge us for the issues/discourses of our time. Our church is trying really hard to show love for LGBTQ people - perhaps those could be quoted after Christ returns to say that our church wasn't actually serious about sexual purity?
I've appreciated how candid you've been with the issues fracturing the Catholic church today, and yet have continued to maintain your faith in the church. With that in mind, it feels a little like straining at gnats to reference a February 1857 discourse by Brigham Young as evidence my church is Satanic. The gospel has many principles, and we encourage members to gain a testimony of each individually - the "blood atonement" isn't on that list of gospel principles.
I would encourage you to focus some of your attention on The Book of Mormon. There are a few key primary questions and an endless list of secondary questions. Primary questions are ones that really matter, that if you know the answer to them - the secondary questions are either answered or are fine to stay unresolved for now. A good primary question is whether Jesus Christ is the Son of God and sacrificed himself for the sins of mankind. If you believe that, you can usually handle some of the secondary questions that come up. For us, a big primary question is whether Joseph Smith was a true prophet. I acknowledge that there is a lot of bad things said about him - but you'd expect that of a true prophet. We need to get to the specifics to decide whether the accusation is fair. Any serious study should also look at the fruits of Joseph Smith, the primary one being The Book of Mormon.
All the said, if you are willing, we'd be happy to have you come and teach our family some time. You can give a lesson on whatever you'd like to share. My daughter Lilian was recently invited to a church activity for another religion - and before the activity they all went around the room and asked everyone to clarify their preferred gender pronouns. It would be nice to have a believer with more traditional values teach about their faith in Christ. My only concern is their attention span - more than few minutes is tough with some of the kids. Our doors are open, but my thumbs are tired - come on by and let's discuss in person!
So Father D hadn't sent us specific charges, we thought we'd look for some ourselves. I did a little googling of "occult Joseph Smith" and found that him having a Jupiter Talisman was one of the charges, so I sent Corey this link from Fair Mormon and then he sent these messages to Father D.
In 1974 a man named Dr. Reed Durham said Joseph: "evidently [had a Talisman] on his person when he was martyred. The talisman, originally purchased from the Emma Smith Bidamon family, fully notarized by that family to be authentic and to have belonged to Joseph Smith, can now be identified as a Jupiter talisman." He later is reported to have said: “I now wish I had presented some of my material differently… For instance, at the present time, after rechecking my data, I find no primary evidence that Joseph Smith ever possessed a Jupiter talisman. The source for my comment was a second-hand, late source. It came from Wilford Wood, who was told it by Charlie Bidamon, who was told it by his father, Lewis Bidamon, who was Emma’s second husband and a non-Mormon not too friendly to the LDS Church. So, the idea that the Prophet had such a talisman is highly questionable!”
A list of the items on Joseph’s possession at the time of his death was originally published in 1885 in Iowa by James W. Woods, Smith's lawyer, who collected the prophet's personal effects after the Martyrdom. The contents from the published 1885 printing are as follows – with no mention of a talisman mentioned:
“Received, Nauvoo, Illinois, July 2, 1844, of James W. Woods, one hundred and thirty- five dollars and fifty cents in gold and silver and receipt for shroud, one gold finger ring, one gold pen and pencil case, one penknife, one pair of tweezers, one silk and one leather purse, one small pocket wallet containing a note of John P. Green for $50, and a receipt of Heber C. Kimball for a note of hand on Ellen M. Saunders for one thousand dollars, as the property of Joseph Smith.” - Emma Smith.
Here is another potential source for the charges of the occult. A man named D. Michael Quinn was raised a Latter-day Saint and taught history BYU as a historian for about a dozen years. He resigned from BYU in 1988, around the same time his marriage ended and he came out as a homosexual. Eventually he was ex-communicated from the church. He also published a book about same-sex friendships and romances in 19th-century Mormonism. He died last year, but in 2017 he did a history of the church’s finances and said his findings were “an enormously faith-promoting story…If Latter-day Saints could see ‘the larger picture,’” they would “breathe a sigh of relief and see the church is not a profit-making business.” There were a lot of people who complained about the church building the City Creek Mall in 2012 – saying it was not good for a church to spend that money on a commercial activity.
Anyway, Quinn wrote a book called “Early Mormonism and the Magic World View” – the introduction to the book says there is “ample evidence for folk magic in nineteenth-century New England, as he does in Mormon founder Joseph Smith’s upbringing” and makes some claims including:
• Claims books on magic and the occult readily available on the 19th century frontier (critics say he miscites his source, doubles the cited figure, and conflates book peddlers with all peddlers)
• Claims the word "jugglers" means "conjurors" in the definition of what a “disorderly person” is. The Laws of the State of New-York, Revised and Passed at the Thirty-Sixth Session of the Legislature (Albany: Southwick, 1813) says the following with Quinn’s insertion of “[conjurors]” in this book, but not in the original: “Disorderly Persons" "all jugglers [conjurors], and all persons pretending to have skill in physiognomy, palmistry, or like crafty science, or pretending to tell fortunes, or to discover lost goods." (critics say it is clear that those referred to are those who attempt to extract money from others by deceit)
• Claims Joseph gave Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball divining rods as a symbol of gratitude for their loyalty – (those checking the source says it contradicts what he says)
I haven’t gone through all the claims, but I’ve seen some rebuttals. It looks like Quinn was generally a respected/talented man who had some issues that distanced himself from the church. He is reported to have said: “I’m a seventh-generation Mormon. Nothing can take that away from me”. This is the first time the “glass-looking” charge in court make sense as “evidence” he’s into the occult. If I’m reading it right, Joseph was charged with disorderly conduct which Quinn redefines as “conjuror”.
It makes sense that a discontent, excommunicated member of the church would look for an explanation of Joseph’s Spiritual experiences. Your neighbor Jacob recently posted on Facebook that after he left the church he couldn’t explain Joseph’s revelations until he discovered hallucinogenic substances (some of his other posts suggest that he may be into those now).
Help me out here - what is the conclusive evidence…Freemasonry?
A man named Abner Cole was a contemporary of Joseph Smith and editor of the newspaper The Reflector. Cole obtained segments of the Book of Mormon (before it was published) by stealing the typeset of Grandin’s press and printed those segments of the Book of Mormon calling it "Jo Smith's Gold Bible" accompanied by his own criticisms. Joseph had obtained a copyright and confronted Cole who stopped stealing and printing segments. Cole stopped copyright infringement, but then printed satires of the Book of Mormon called "Book of Pukei”. In the Book of Pukei, Cole claimed that there was a man named “Walters the Magician” who was involved in witchcraft and money-digging – and he took Joseph Smith into the woods on nighttime money-digging excursions. According to the Book of Pukei, they drew a magic circle, sacrificed a rooster, and dug for treasure but never found anything. Walters then left and left the mantel to Joseph Smith. Cole called Joseph an ignoramus, criminal, and servant of Satan. I haven’t found evidence of historians who take the Book of Pukei seriously – only that it was satire.
Speaking of “magic circles”, our friend Quinn (previous text) claims one LDS reference supporting the use of magic circles. Here is the quote of what Lucy writes in 1845:
“Now I shall change my theme for the present. But let not my reader suppose that, because I shall pursue another topic for a season, that we stopped our labor and went at trying to win the faculty of Abrac, drawing Magic circles or sooth saying to the neglect of all kinds of business. We never during our lives suffered one important interest to swallow up every other obligation. But, whilst we worked with our hands, we endeavored to remember the service of, and the welfare of our souls.”
I would have thought Lucy Smith might have used the phrase “magic circle” alluding to Cole’s allegations. LDS historian Richard Bushman notes, "Lucy Smith's main point was that the Smiths were not lazy as the [anti-Mormon] affidavits claimed—they had not stopped their labor to practice magic." But Quinn interprets that the passage is admission that they DID practice magic circles – just that they were careful not to let it interfere with their other activities. If they did, it seems like there would have been other references to it.
So, our evidence of the occult so far includes:
• Accusation Joseph had a talisman on him when he died
• Books on magic were available
• Joseph was charged with disorderly conduct, which Quinn interprets as being a “conjurer” though its not in the statute
• Joseph may have given followers “divining rods”?
• The Book of Pukei satire
• A non-obvious interpretation of something Lucy Mack Smith wrote using the words “magic circles”
Considering the accusations and rebuttals, I’m not yet convinced. I guess next stop will be Freemasonry. I’m not all that familiar with Freemasonry other than knowing a lot of notables were members (Benjamin Franklin, 14 Presidents of the US including George Washington, 13 signers of the Declaration of Independence, Henry Ford, Cecil B. DeMille, Holy Roman Emperor Francis II, Mark Twain, Winston Churchill, and Beethoven). According to Wikipedia, Pope Leo XIII (was he a good one?) wrote “that his primary objection to Masonry was naturalism, his accusations were about pantheism, rationalism, and naturalism; but not about Satanism”
So, the discussion continues! We've been sharing the dialogue with our missionaries, it's fun to search other people's questions, cause I find answers, even if they don't think they are answers. Jesus has the answers and he shows them to me as I study the scriptures and the restored gospel. I love it and I feel so edified when I study. It feels clear and sure and I know I'm standing on a firm foundation. I'll end with this thought from Brother Halverson's talk that I shared a few days ago - Start at 1:26:58 for a little comparison to a black and white photograph and it's negative, then he shares:
"I had an evangelical friend call me once, an anti mormon, but we got along well, and he said 'Halverson, just leave your Church and join mine! You know you like evangelical doctrine!' 'I do! I love how much you love Jesus. But I love him that much too. I just know a little bit more about him, premortally and American ministry, and so it's just no, I'd miss too much. I appreciate your concern for the welfare of my soul, but in the arithmetic of my deconversion it would be nothing but subtraction for me.' And he said 'I know! Because you Mormons added things you shouldn't have so you need subtraction in your life!' I'm like 'I know where you're coming from... the difference is though, If I were being honest with you, and I'm trying to be, if I left the church over issue A, B, and C, and I know they're there... they've driven some people out.... I would lose sleep every day for the rest of my life over the Book of Mormon. Cause I wouldn't be able to explain it in any way that was intellectually satisfying, not to mention spiritually satisfying. That book has a hold on my head and my heart in ways that that exclamation point would forever remain a question mark for me if I left.'"
If we ever left the church, we would lose so much knowledge, it's just not worth it. I'll stay and deal with the questions, cause I am so grateful for all the answers it give in other areas. I never want to give those up!
