A Supreme Creator

Ok, this is a long post, sorry.

I had a brief dialogue with someone who commented on this article about Karen Santorum's statement that she felt it was God's will for her husband to run for president. (I have no problem with that, I don't think she was saying it's God's will that he win, just God's will that he run...), so I replied to this lady's comment because she claimed there is no God because why would God care about politics and not help people who suffer, thus he is either evil or not powerful (although claiming he's either evil or not powerful doesn't prove he doesn't exist...) Something like that. Here's my brief conversation with Scunnered:

Scunnered - Gaawd. And my overly religious friend just told me "god" helped her heal after a boob job. If "god" gets involved in boob jobs, sports and politics whilst ignoring the suffering, hungry, abused and neglected then "he's" either evil or not as powerful as "he'd" like you to believe. Right?

Tiffanie Hibbert Wride - Incorrect. Read "There is No Death" by Sarah Menet, she talks about why people suffer with hunger, abuse, neglect, etc. Sarah was severely abused by her father, was an atheist for the same reasons you share, but after committing suicide (unsuccessfully), she learned by experience to think differently. She talks about your question, start on pg 99 and pg 115

Scunnered - Incorrect??! Tiffanie, please! No wait, as there is no way I'm purchasing the said book, could you please enlighten me? How does she justify (because that's really all she's doing) her god ignoring those in need yet scurrying to the aid of my friend after a boob job? Please share!

Tiffanie Hibbert Wride - Right - also, in view of all the world's problems, why would God heal a boob job because of prayer but not protect two children from being burned alive, which is the story of Josh Powell's kids that's been in the news recently - would people agree that those things are evil? My answer - absolutely yes. If we believe in evil and that some things are wrong, then we are both appealing to the same "moral" standard defining right and wrong, but who is behind those morals and defining them. Who says killing is bad? Can someone murder and say "well, that's just your opinion?" No, it's truth, it's God's standard and God's truth. It's an eternal truth.

We are all free to choose things that are evil/wrong/bad or to choose things that are good/right/true, and this life is where we experience some of the consequences of our choices, and after this life is over, death is inevitable, we'll continue to receive the blessings and peace or the punishments and misery of our choices and actions here on earth.

Don't know if your library has the book. Happy to continue this discussion here. You can read my review on amazon for that book if you want to hear more of my thoughts

Scunnered - I'm not talking about Josh Powell, I'm talking about young victims (his and others). Is it 'gods will' that they be raped, abused and tourtured while praying and nobody comes to their aid? How about Fraulein Friesel who prayed to 'god' for 30 years to help her...was THAT gods will with the promise of a better life after death??!!! Why did my friend deserve his aid after her boob job more than Fraulein Friesel??

We now know that there are multiple universes with multiple earth-type planets...why do you think everything is all about us? Also, can't you see the ugliness in people raping, killing, every single day....we are no different than animals. Why do you think after a life of drinking beer and watching tv that there is a better place 'in the sky' for humans? Sorry to tell you this but just like every other living thing: When it's over, it's over. We go back to the earth.

Tiffanie Hibbert Wride - If we are just like every other living thing, then your argument becomes meaningless because there's nothing to get upset about and nothing "morally" wrong about killing, rape, or any supposed "ugly" action. It's not ugly, it just is. People suffer too cause that's just how it is. Animals suffer way more than humans. Lions will kill their cubs, crocodiles kill wildebeests, and seems like there's nothing to be upset about then if there's no God, cause that's just how just is. Right? Or am I missing something in the logic there?

People who believe in God have to explain why people suffer - People who don't believe in God have to explain everything else.

Wind and rain didn't carve the Rosetta Stone, there's a human idea, plan and designer behind a physical computer, and there's a Designer with a master plan behind each body, world, and galaxy without number.

There is a Supreme Creator
(That's a good youtube video, watch it)

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So that's that. I don't think it helped her at all, but it does always help cement my own beliefs to have a discussion like that and hear someone else's point of view (especially when it makes absolutely no sense). Also in the comments, an atheist Ralph goes off about how there is no God but there is just no logic in his argument.

It's long, but I'll post those comments here too:

Ralph - Christians believe God planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death." Let's examine one simple implication of this statement. What this means is that God pre-planned every abortion that has taken place on our planet.
If you think about this implication for a few moments, you will begin to realize how impossible "God's plan" is. If the concept of "God's plan" is true, you can first of all see that God wants us to be aborting children.
Every single abortion is planned by God, so God must be doing it for a reason.
Second, you can see that both the mother who requests the abortion and the doctor who performs it are blameless. Since it is God who planned the abortion of the child (God chose the "exact time" of the death), the mother and doctor are simply puppets who are fulfilling God's plan.
You can also see that all the Christians who are fighting against abortion are missing the point. They are actually fighting against God's plan, and their fight is completely futile. God is the all-powerful ruler of the universe, and his plan is for more than a million children a year to die in the United States through abortion. Each one of those abortions was meticulously planned by God, so fighting against abortion is a totally wasted effort.
If you are a Christian, what you are thinking is, "God does not intend for us to perform abortions!" But if you believe what the Bible tells you, then you are obviously incorrect. God is actually the direct cause of every abortion on earth. If you find that notion to be uncomfortable, I would agree with you. Unfortunately, that is the logical outcome of God's plan.

NHConstitutionalist - Your deductive reasoning would be correct. In which case we can do away with the premise of free will. Every vile act that has been committed is no ones fault, an Interesting concept. But, that leads to the question; why do Christians believe in original sin, baptism, and the the reason Jesus died and was resurrected if individuals are not accountable for sin, given it was already predetermined what actions they would perform?
Since I don't follow those beliefs, I guess I'll simply have to take responsibility for my actions.
That aside, I'm inclined to believe God is not responsible for our behavior nor is He involved in politics as it is that is considered to be what is rendered to Cesar. If I believed in the devil I say it was more his realm. Oh 7734 I'll say it anyway, given the condition of this world I'd be inclined to think he certainly has his hot bony fingers in it.
Thanks for your insight, I had to smile ... The devil made me do it.

Ralph - If you believe in "God's Plan" then everyone is a puppet..God and his pan knew and sanctioned the abortions.
BTW..where are the Christians who are Christ-like and were ordered by their God to sell all their possessions and give the money to the poor?
Have you sold all you own to feed the poor? About 30,000 children die from hunger every day!
Where is your God? Sleeping? Where are God's followers????
Your religion, like your God are frauds!

onthethirdrail - If you are an atheist - there is no objective morality. So not only are abortions acceptable but also infanticide.
If a new male lion takes over a pride he will kill the male babies since they are not his offspring. The logical implcation is that it would be ok for the boyfriend of a divorced woman to kill her children so that his genes will be the ones passed on.

Ralph - Your God is the master of infanticide...read the book of Exodus.
In the book of Exodus chapter 12 verse 28, God writes about one of his early massacres:
So the people of Israel did just as the LORD had commanded through Moses and Aaron. And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died.
Here the death of the children is directly at the hand of God.
In Isaiah chapter 13, God paints this word picture:
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows.
They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.
What a lovely image.

onthethirdrail - Master of infanticide... but Ralph atheists are fine with killing hundreds of thousands of babies each year... so what's your beef with God?
You see Ralph, you have no moral ground to stand on. You want to say baby killing is wrong but your all for it - you cut your nose off to spite your face.

Ralph -You will find men like him in all of the world's religions. They know that we Atheists represent reason and science, and, however confident they may be in their beliefs, they fear that we will overthrow their gods. Not necessarily through any deliberate act, but in a subtler fashion. Science can destroy a religion by ignoring it as well as by disproving its tenets. No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, the nonexistence of Zeus or Thor, but they have few followers now.

NHConstitutionalist - Ralph ... I don't believe it. I'm just thunder struck. We Thor followers hold monthly meetings or as the gods allow. But it's good to know, now we can claim minority status and get our special privileges.

onthethirdrail - Ralph, You *believe* you use logic and reason but in actuality your believe are just as faith based as anyone elses. Tell me how do atheist prove:
1) the law of non-contradiction
2) The uniformity of nature
3) Cause and effect
etc...
You can't - you have to take it on faith.
The only rational position for someone who rejects God is hyper-skepticism

Ralph - You insult me if you think I would worship an invisible mass murderer called 'God"

onthethirdrail - Hmmm... Interesting response. It sounds like your just emoting. Logic and rationality - not so much.

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So, what do you think?

We watched the movie "The Conspirator" on Saturday with the kids (Hyrum is into President Lincoln right now) and I don't know for myself all the true facts behind what the movie presented, but I liked the part where the lawyer Frederick Aiken had to defend Mary Surratt, but didn't want to cause he felt/thought she was guilty, so a mentor told him "Prove her guilt then" so as he went to search for proof that she was guilty he rather found reasons why she couldn't be guilty.
Same thing with God, I think if people listened to their reasoning, they'd realize that things that they want to use for proof of their case don't have any ground to stand on WITHOUT there being a God. They don't have proof, their facts don't stand up to scrutiny. CS Lewis was an atheist, but he was logical about it and a great thinker, and he was able to realize that by his saying "God is unjust" because people suffer, that statement proves God exists cause you are appealing to a moral standard, thus there are morals, cause if there aren't morals you don't have a case! Does that make sense? He explains it in his book "Mere Christianity", the first couple chapters set up the reasoning that logically there is a God since there are things that are good and bad. It's an excellent read, a little deep for me, I have to read it slow and piece it apart and put it back together, but I love CS Lewis, he's an amazing thinker.

One more thing - Melodie is doing a paper on Helen Keller, and last night we looked for a memorable quote she said, and when I read this I thought THAT IS AWESOME and thought it was another tally for "There is a God" side:


"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it." - Helen Keller

Isn't that awesome! Amen I say! Yes, there is suffering! So do you want to be one of the people who sits around in the suffering and complains about it, or are you going to rise above it?
Also this one:

"I do not want the peace which passeth understanding, I want the understanding which bringeth peace." - Helen Keller

So, if anyone doesn't know if there is a God, they could look at Scunnered's arguments, but to me a big red flag is that she sounds angry and bitter, she doesn't have peace or sound happy... I don't want to be like that. Seems like those beliefs she has aren't serving her very well right now in my opinion. And since "right now" is all she thinks she has, I'd like to suggest to her that she change her Belief Box asap and try to find peace. If she does in face have peace then I'm happy for her.

As for me, the Gospel of Jesus Christ brings me peace. I know there is a God, I know that Christ lives and is the Son of God! I am so grateful for the gospel. Ok, one more thing, as we read the scriptures with our kids last week and we talked about Nephi, my 8 year old Hyrum said "Well, how do we know that Nephi was real?" which is a question we just loved! We talked for a good hour with the kids, then as we kissed goodnight, Corey said "You can know if it's true through prayer and by asking. ...but until then, I want you to know that I know it's true. AND I want you to know that without the gospel you would have never been born. Goodnight!" Kinda funny way to send him off into his dreams, I laughed.

Having kids is hard work, but it is soo worth it. We're grateful for that commandment to have a family, there is no greater joy, it's given me joy that I didn't know I wanted or needed.